Entrepreneur and executive director of Stanford Technology Ventures Program Coach Mo joins us today to shine a light on the struggles she has seen other women, minorities, and coworkers undergo. She has made it her mission to create spaces in which people can work through business, professional, and life challenges. As Asian women are under-represented in the coaching industry, Mo founded the Asian Women’s Coaching Collective (awcoachingcollective.org) to build a community with a vision of convening to empower and transform the experiences of Asian women and coaches.
Transcript:
Speaker 1: [00:00:14] Three, two, one, lift off, we have a lift off!
Samhita Jayanti: [00:00:33] Welcome, Mo, it’s so nice to see you. I’m sorry we’re not doing this in person.
Mo Fong: [00:00:38] It’s great to see you too, Sam. Excited to be here.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:00:41] So as I was preparing, Mo, for our session today, I was thinking about how to introduce you to our listeners. And there’s so many ways that I could do that. I want to just run through some of the key themes in your background and career. You’re an executive and career coach with a very strong interest in DEI and women’s issues; you will forever be a former Googler; you’ve recently taken on a role with the Stanford Technology Ventures program, and also started something called the Asian Women’s Coaching Collective. And I’m super excited today to dive into some of these areas of your work and coaching and life with you. So thanks for being here.
Mo Fong: [00:01:29] Thanks for having me, Sam. [00:01:30][1.0]
Samhita Jayanti: [00:01:31] So there’s so many accomplishments that you have on paper, Mo, but I love the way that you introduced yourself. Let’s take a look.
Mo Fong: [00:01:43] My name is Mo Fong and greetings from sunny California, where I’ve lived most of my life. So to tell you a little bit more about myself, I immigrated from Taiwan when I was just five years old and I describe myself as a lifelong learner. Certainly, when I was little, I had to learn English and American culture and just how to navigate life in general. But more recently, I’ve loved learning more about other people, what get them energized and up in the morning, what challenges they face and what makes them resilient. And certainly during the pandemic, I’ve learned a lot more about myself, about how to be a better caregiver to two very energetic boys and an aging mother, and also to be a better wife to my husband. And I love just learning about how to make things, how to build things. And so I jumped on the sourdough-bread-making bandwagon very early on, but recently we’ve expanded to making root beer and shooting archery with my son. And it’s really made all the difference in terms of how I view the world more positively and also with more energy. So hopefully that gives you a better sense of who I am.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:02:48] So Mo, supplementing the way you described yourself, I wanted to chat about your transition from being in technology and in business and having very sort of line oriented roles where you were working on products like Google Classroom to then becoming a coach. Tell us a little bit about that transition.
Mo Fong: [00:03:14] Yeah, I think that transition came very naturally to me, but it actually took several years for the transition to take place. I’ve been coaching a lot throughout my career, especially when I started to manage teams. And then I realized that that’s actually where I was making the most value, especially during the pandemic. These leaders that I was coaching, and definitely women in tech who were just juggling so many balls, they needed somebody first to listen and understand and empathize with them, but then also to help coach them. So this is not advice- giving, right, because each of us have our own stories and our own challenges. But it’s really how to use the skills and the creativity that we already have to navigate the complexities of life. And oftentimes, when we’re stressed, it’s hard to think clearly. And so the coach just comes along side and helps them, you know, just carve out that path that’s probably already there but it might be like covered with some thorns or some shrubs, but just clearing that path for them so that they know how to get to their goals and a little bit easier. And it’s always better if you’re walking a path with somebody next to you.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:04:28] One hundred percent. I mean, if I could have a coach walking my paths with me all the time, I absolutely would. It’s so tremendously helpful. Technology is interesting, right, because on a relative basis there are very few women. It is much, much more male-concentrated. Do you think the issues that you faced or you saw women confront are different in technology? You’ve ended up talking to them and coaching them through some of those issues. But are they distinct for technology, do you think?
Mo Fong: [00:05:04] I think so, because women interact with technology in different ways, right? And certainly, you know, there’s no secret that women are still responsible for more than 60 percent of the household responsibilities. And certainly last year, with distance learning, we were front and center watching our kids struggle with all the technology, watching the teachers struggle with all the technology. And certainly, you know, even without the pandemic, we see the impact of technology just in terms of how all of us have started interacting with it on a day-to-day basis. And, you know, with recent news about the influence of misinformation on social media or just the way we perceive ourselves because of the types of communications that’s coming at us from all different circles, it’s really different when women interact with that technology because I see us as not only the caregivers for the protectors of the people in our family. And so we want to make sure that the technology is built in such a way that it takes into account, you know, just how inclusive the technology can be and also how exclusive, right, to put it another way. So I think women just look at it from a very different lens. And certainly being at the table, you know who we produce various types of products, we’re making sure that it’s designed for us, too. So, for example, you know, there’s so many examples over the years, you know, from contraception all the way to airbags in cars, right? It’s really important that women are at the table to help the designers and the engineers and even the business people who are trying to sell these products know what are use cases are.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:06:47] Yeah, no, that makes that makes total sense. You know, when you described how you got started as a coach, let’s take a quick listen to that.
Mo Fong: [00:06:59] As I tell my coaching clients, knowing your “why” is so important, because it serves as your anchor in the middle of a storm. And no matter how chaotic and may be, your anchor will not allow you to get lost. For me, my “why” emerged with more clarity these past couple of years as I coached women, especially women in tech, on how to navigate the complexities brought on by the pandemic, whether there’s more demands at work or juggling working from home with kids on distance learning and caregiving, and even making sense of the social injustice that was happening around us. I could tell from these sessions that women were coming out with better ways of making decisions with more confidence and joy, and even more peace as they go about their day to day lives. It was then that I realized I had a new calling to help women really reframe their situations from something that was negative into something in a more positive light so they could be light into the world. So I’m excited about this new purpose I have, and excited to help more women discover what it truly means to live to their full potential.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:08:14] I loved the way that you said that you realized the importance of coaching in the workplace because so many people were struggling. What were the struggles that you confronted, or helped women particularly in technology, confront? Why are they unique? Why are they different in technology? What is it about the environment that makes it different beyond the product and the need for women to sort of interact with the product because women consume the product in such a distinct way?
Mo Fong: [00:08:48] Yeah, so if I’m understanding the question, it’s really about how was coaching inside a corporation, especially for women, how they were experiencing their work. It’s really interesting seeing the trend over time because the question around this, so the purpose of “why are we here” and is our day-to-day activities mapping to what our internal purpose is. And so a lot of people started questioning like, why is it that I spend a large portion of my time on, you know, decks or performance reviews and spreadsheets? Like what is the actual impact that I’m having? And it’s sometimes hard in technology to see direct impact, especially in software. We don’t always–unless you’re in UX or in product–see that day-to-day interaction with your products. So I felt really fortunate to work for an operations area where I could see the comments and the feedback coming from our users. But I think for a lot of women, especially if they’re like, you know, my purpose is now so multifaceted, like there’s a huge tradeoff between being at work or spending the time with their family and friends and who needs us more, right, in these critical moments. And of course, like all of us have the judge in all of us, right, where we’re like, we want to excel at everything. But when there was so much chaos and so much change and complexity to navigate, we needed to make tradeoffs. And it was really hard for some of us too, especially the women, to make sure that we show ourselves some grace, that we don’t have to get everything done 100 percent. And that this is a perfect time to step back and say, OK, what is actually meaningful to me and can I derive meaning and purpose from the work that I’m doing at work. And I think there’s a lot of people who were able to come to a conclusion that even in the most mundane things, it’s still very critical. We’re not just cogs in this big machine is actually every single pin and every single wheel, it all matters.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:11:09] Yeah, I think you said a number of things that are super fascinating, right, I think as women, you know, number one, we tend to hold ourselves to often an unrealistically high standard amidst juggling so many different sets of responsibilities. And I think the pandemic laid bare in many ways and for a very large number of women that juggle and that set of tradeoffs became impossible, which is understandable. I also think companies didn’t recognize that role that women were forced into, much, much more as a result of the pandemic and sort of adapt to that to make it more possible for women to take a step back for a bit and then reengage or whatever. And and I also think at the same time, we’re a generation who has had access to every opportunity, educational and otherwise. And so we’ve almost built an expectation for ourselves that we’re failing if we’re not doing it all. And you know, that’s a very that’s a very hard trifecta to sort of deal with.
Mo Fong: [00:12:36] Absolutely. And there’s this great book called “Why We Can’t Sleep,” and it’s really about, you know, the messages that we’ve been getting ever since we were young girls, right? You can do it all and we should do it all and don’t let anyone hold you back and lean in more, you know? But I think there are times where we need to take a deep breath and sometimes even letting things go to the extent that we are comfortable being in silence almost. And being comfortable with nothing to do.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:13:13] Yeah. And comfortable with messiness sometimes, right?
Mo Fong: [00:13:16] Yeah absolutely, comfortable with that messy kitchen sink and you know, the dishes overflow.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:13:22] Absolutely. One of the things you did during the pandemic was to start the Asian Women’s Coaching Collective. And you described it very, very well. Let’s have a quick listen here.
Mo Fong: [00:13:40] The genesis of the Asian Women Coaching Collective came at a time when crimes against Asian elderly became national news earlier this year. In the sadness, fear and trauma there was also hope and light as many of us came together to support one another and find tangible solutions. We know that Asians don’t often seek mental health professionals for support, but they do look to their career coaches. So a few of us came together to form AWCC with a vision to empower and transform the experiences of Asian women leaders and ourselves as coaches in the workplace, at home and within our communities. By meeting together monthly, we’ve become like sisters and I’m so grateful for my circle, a community and Asian women coaches for their kindness, love and understanding. So I’m really proud to say that we’re opening up this community so that we can more effectively support Asian women coaches and leaders who are navigating their teams and also their own journey of self-discovery.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:14:47] So, Mo, tell us, what was your motivation to start the collective? It feels as though we’re at such a difficult time, right, between the impact that the pandemic had on women, the hatred against Asians brought on by the pandemic and the way it’s been expressed in our societies, especially in major cities; and a set of issues that are peculiar to and particular to Asian women. So tell us a little bit about your goals and expectations for the collective. How is it set up? How is it gone so far?
Mo Fong: [00:15:30] Thank you so much for asking. I probably need a set a little bit of context because a lot of my work in education and also on the diversity team while I was at Google was about supporting underrepresented groups, right? And especially those who wanted to pursue computer science and was feeling that they were blocked from entering into those fields and certainly underrepresented, include Black, Latinx communities and low income communities and women in tech. But when it was interesting because earlier on this year, when there was so much hatred and also honestly violence against the elderly in the Asian community was happening, there was so much silence all around, right? And it was like almost nobody was acknowledging that this was happening or that it’s been an issue, or that even Asians are a minority. And certainly they’re not a minority, per say, in the tech industry, but if you look at the U.S. population, Asians only make up six percent of the US population. So yes we are, ethnically, a minority. And so I think when all of this was happening and, you know, attacks on the elderly is hitting upon a cultural nerve where the elderly are so respected in the Asian culture. and so this was just not only resoundingly offensive, but we all took it to be–I don’t know how to even describe it–like it just creates this gut reaction, like we have to do something, this is not right. And so, you know, a lot of the corporate leaders throughout the US signed The Wall Street Journal article StopAsianHate, and we’ve been pouring resources to raise awareness, to actually do something. You know, and then the Atlanta shootings happened and small and medium businesses, you know, were suffering and so we said we can do something. So I wanted to think about what I could be doing as well. And, you know, quite a few of the listening sessions that I’ve been having with the Asian community, you know, a lot of the Asian women spoke up and said Mo, this is the first time I’ve even talked about this and I don’t know who to talk to. And it’s also known that Asians don’t go to mental health professionals, but they will say, hey, you know, career coaches? This is great. It’s very practical, right? So I said, OK, we need a number one, equip Asian women coaches, leaders and help individual contributors who know how to make sense of what was happening around them to build up their own resilience in those situations. And if they are leaders, how to lead their teams in this discussion, especially in environments where people don’t think Asians have a problem or challenges, right? And then so the second thing, too, not only do we want to equip Asian coaches, and Asian women coaches in particular, but also to help people find us. Because there’s not a lot of Asian coaches in general. If you look at certifications.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:18:58] Coach, in general. [00:18:59][0.7]
Mo Fong: [00:18:58] Exactly. So, you know, I think that those were the two main driving reasons why we started AWCC. What I’ve been so delightfully surprised as well as grateful for is that when we started the first catalyst circle with AWCC, you know, it’s been such a supporting group of women.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:19:23] So what is a catalyst circle, tell us.
Mo Fong: [00:19:25] That’s a good question too so a catalyst circle is basically six to ten of us, we come together and we meet–our circle meets on a bi weekly basis but really it’s monthly–on any topic that we find relevant, both for ourselves and understanding our own identities, as well as helping us in our coaching profession. So in my particular circle, I’ve gotten to know all these women at a much deeper level. What our personal challenges are and just supporting one another in that way, but also sharing resources like there’s so many different coaching tools out there, and quite a few of us are certified in different types of tools. So we’ve been able to talk about how we use these tools and very practical business advice, too. And referring each other to clients as well.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:20:12] That’s fantastic. I’m so glad to hear that you started this, first of all, but also that it’s working so well, both for you and all of the other members of the group. Let’s shift gears a little bit, Mo. You recently took on a position in the Stanford Technology Ventures program. Tell us a little bit about that.
Mo Fong: [00:20:38] This program is so aligned with my values. I didn’t think I would take on another full-time position so soon after leaving Google, but when I saw this role and the way it intersects technology with positive social impact, their most recent area of research is around ethics and entrepreneurship. So it completely aligns with what I deeply believe in and am passionate about. So they were looking for an executive director, and this is a general management role, which those who went to business school, probably are all trained to be those general managers to take care of this organization. It’s been around for 25 years. I mean, they’ve been helping entrepreneurs, you know, young and folks in the field for many years to learn how to start businesses but also how to scale them and starting it with a sense of purpose that it’s going to be something that will transform the world in a variety of industries. But the research that they have done is seminal. I think most people have heard of the Lean Startup–that was started by this organization. And I’m just beyond thrilled to be there.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:21:49] Yeah, fantastic. Wow. Sounds like an amazing program, and it’s such an interesting thing for you in particular because it really lies of this intersection of technology. Or do you spend a lot of your career in coaching as an entrepreneur because you have your own business and many of the issues that you have felt passionately about whether they were in the DEI or minorities and women, or ethics and responsibility and behavior and technology, and with respect to their platforms and market position. So it sounds like an amazing and amazing role. Congratulations.
Mo Fong: [00:22:34] Thank you. And I get to be back on the Stanford campus. And so it is my alma mater and it’s so beautiful.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:22:43] Absolutely. So let’s talk a little bit, Mo, about your coaching practice now. And I thought what would be really great for our listeners is to sort of get an impression of you and your coaching style. So we’re going to do a super compressed, very mini session, mini version of this. It’s just going to be 10 minutes. But pretend I’m a client who’s coming to you, or a colleague at Google who’s coming to you, who needs some coaching. And treat me that way and coach me!
Mo Fong: [00:23:27] That’s great. So Sam, like, tell me what you want to explore today.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:23:34] I am pretty frustrated that I don’t see the results of my work, like I feel like a cog in the wheel. I’m part of a big team. We’re building this complicated product. I am selling that product, but not working on the product myself. And so it’s hard for me to feel apart of it and responsible for it and kind of really see my place and understand my role.
Mo Fong: [00:24:16] How long have you felt this way?
Samhita Jayanti: [00:24:21] The last few months,
Mo Fong: [00:24:24] So if you can think back to a time where you felt more excitement, what’s changed between that time and now?
Samhita Jayanti: [00:24:37] I think that the excitement I used to feel was when I was closer to the implementation teams working with the product itself. And I could, when I wasn’t involved with the implementations directly, I could see and touch almost and, you know, see it in action and see the tangibility of those changes and results and kind of the software in action. I feel now just more distant and more cut off and and more like, I’m in this business development sales role with this sort of disconnect from like the product on the ground in the hands of users, or in the hands of the engineers who are always working with it.
Mo Fong: [00:25:29] So how does that make you feel, being more disconnected?
Samhita Jayanti: [00:25:35] A weird combination of bored, not part of the team, and less excited about what I’m doing.
Mo Fong: [00:25:50] So this notion of being bored. I’m curious, like, is there something that you want to keep learning that you haven’t really tapped into yet?
Samhita Jayanti: [00:26:05] That’s a great question. I think that I am happiest and sort of performing at my best when I am learning through problem-solving, in a sense. So I don’t feel overwhelmed or fazed when people sort of present me with a problem. I feel pretty stimulated actually to think through what is the solution set here and how do we sort of wrestle with and get a handle on a problem? And I think I lose interest a bit, and some of this boredom starts to become more of an influence when there’s almost a sameness to what you’re doing and you’re sort of rinsing and repeating.
Mo Fong: [00:27:04] That definitely happens over time, right, when you get better at your job. So are there big problems that you want to be solving for right now?
Samhita Jayanti: [00:27:18] Yes, actually. And I think, you know, thinking about…so I think there’s one set of problem-solving which is getting myself to a place where I’m in that zone of stimulated and performing and it’s all kind of working together. And then there’s sort of shifting some of my work emphasis to be in a place where it requires of me more of that problem-solving, sort of, capability or part of me. And figuring out if that’s something that’s accessible to me here at this company.
Mo Fong: [00:28:17] And that’s a critical point of whether or not that is accessible. And I know we don’t have a lot of time, but you know, I definitely would love to talk to you a little bit more about who your stakeholders might be and how you can enlist some allies so that if you have these big problems you want to tackle that potentially you can be assigned to those types of projects getting more proximate to the users like you were talking about, having that direct connection again. Certainly, if there are still responsibilities you have in the sales department, try maybe having a portfolio approach to your work. It doesn’t have to be all one or the other. So to just get some of that excitement back.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:29:04] Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. That was that was great. Thank you for indulging me. But these sessions are really fantastic because they really give our listeners a sense of who you are as a coach, but also what sorts of issues coaching tackles and grapples with it. For so many people, I think the pandemic has in a sense highlighted the value and the importance of coaching. And I think so many more people are turning to coaching now, either proactively for the first time as a way to help themselves in their careers and the transitions that we all go through multiple times, right, especially as women in our lives, but also as an alternative to therapy and/or other kinds of resources. So it’s possibly helpful.
Mo Fong: [00:29:58] Yeah, absolutely. And oftentimes I find clients will come with a particular challenge that is not actually the underlying root cause of where they’re experiencing stress or anxiety. And so trying to help them dissect that in order to know, like, what exactly do they need? And there are times where I will say, you know, if there’s emotional trauma that is recurring, that is not resolved with one or two coaching sessions, really you probably should look into having a therapist. And there’s a big distinction between coaching and consulting, coaching and mentoring, coaching and therapy because coaches are not going to come to you like a consultant and say, Oh, here are your three options based on everything that we talked about. Let’s go ahead and.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:30:42] Here’s the solution.
Mo Fong: [00:30:43] Yeah, exactly, give you these three solutions and you go off on your own and execute it. That’s not what coaching is about. And neither is it mentoring, right, because obviously, some of the clients will not share the same industries or even the same backgrounds. But certainly, you know, the coaching skills that me and many coaches possess is about extracting what is already in you and just making you confront your thoughts and your feelings about certain situations. Because, like I said to many, it’s not just in your head that where the answers lie. It’s going to be in your gut and in your heart. And so you can really listen to all of you.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:31:24] Connect the bone up, absolutely.
Mo Fong: [00:31:25] Absolutely.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:31:29] So Mo, two questions as we get to the end here. One, what is an intractable situation that you’ve dealt with with somebody that you’ve coached, either within a company or independently as a coach, like what have you found really thorny and kind of difficult to solve?
Mo Fong: [00:31:53] I think when there’s misalignments, with whether it’s the new direction of a company or sometimes it’s with a new manager and it’s relational. That’s often the most difficult situations to break through because oftentimes when our emotions take over because we work on something for a very long time, it becomes our baby. And when somebody comes in and calls your baby ugly, like change them
Samhita Jayanti: [00:32:24] That’s not allowed.
Mo Fong: [00:32:25] That is not allowed. So those are actually quite difficult because there’s a lot of emotion that’s wrapped up in it. And to help people see past the emotion, to have empathy for the new people coming in, you know, those are the things that I find most challenging and takes longer to sort through. Yeah, because a lot of the breakthroughs happen when the clients have more of an introspective look and a self-reflection perspective other than saying, Oh, this person’s terrible and we talked about and we talked about judgment earlier on, right, but this is about judging other people now.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:33:08] Yeah.
Mo Fong: [00:33:10] But I think it all comes from a good place because we do want to do well. And when we see somebody disrupting that, or potentially disrupting that, we either had that fight or flight. And and I think just helping people understand like this is perfectly normal, right, a completely normal type of reaction. But how do we get past that to again think more logically and not try to judge others but create better things together
Samhita Jayanti: [00:33:37] Makes a lot of sense, absolutely. Last question, Mo, any thoughts or advice that you would have for our listeners who might identify an area of need and want to find a coach, how should they think about that philosophically?
Mo Fong: [00:34:01] Yeah, so an area of need…it depends on what they’re looking for because there are different types of coaches out there. Some are more life coaches, so they’ll focus on how to balance work with your life. Some are more executive leadership coaches like there’s a very distinct business school that we want to get to. And so how do you help them navigate potentially a political landscape, things like that. So first, you have to diagnose with that need is and then to find the coach that will specialize in those areas. Now that’s not to say, like sometimes I say, good coaching is good coaching, but if there’s something very specific that you need to accelerate on, you definitely can find those types of coaches that have many clients along the same thing. The other thing I will say, too, is that there is a cultural lens to coaching. And that’s another reason I started to see is because there’s a certain way that, you know, whether you’re Asian or other ethnicities, you’re brought up with certain expectations based on the cultures that you come from or your
Samhita Jayanti: [00:35:15] perfection being one of them.
Mo Fong: [00:35:18] Exactly. Or even how you speak, you know, there’s lots of studies and research about even Japanese culture with U.S. culture, where a nod, it does not mean yes. A nod just means acknowledgment. But you have to decipher those kind of things. So finding a coach who really understands how to do that translation between the cultural backgrounds that you come from and then the realities of the environment that you’re working with might really help somebody break through much quicker because you don’t have to keep explaining yourself of why you behave a certain way. There’s kind of an instant recognition and understanding of kind of the cultural nuances behind behaviors, too.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:36:06] Makes a lot of sense. Wonderful. Well thank you so much, it’s been a pleasure chatting with you.
Mo Fong: [00:36:13] It’s been great to chat, too. And I hope that with your work, helping all these entrepreneurs be successful, that you continue to find ways to talk to us and give us your wisdom too.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:36:26] No that’s really kind. I am most excited about our platform connecting coaches and both individuals and small businesses looking for coaching because it’s such a it’s so hard to find the right fit in terms of a coach these days or even to start with, you know, hey, I want a list of five coaches who could potentially work with me and explore that. And that’s exactly the problem that we’re we’re solving. And so I’m super excited about our path.
Mo Fong: [00:36:55] Me too. It’s going to be great. Thank you so much, Sam.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:37:02] Thank you.
Samhita Jayanti: [00:37:02] Thanks for listening today. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And while you’re there, please do review the show. We love hearing from you, so e-mail us at info@theideamix.com or Instagram DM us. Our episode this week was produced by the incomparable Martin Malesky, with music by the awesome Nashville based singer songwriter Doug Allen. You can learn more about Doug at DougAllenMusic.com.