Coach Meredith explains how nine interconnected personality types help us understand the depth of what really motivates people, how they operate, their basic fears, desires, and how they show up both individually as leaders and then collectively as executives. Coach Meredith talks about why this tool is the most powerful model for developing leaders and teams. Tune in today to learn how the Enneagram can help you understand who you are and how you can develop in both your personal and professional life.
Episode Transcript:
Samhita Jayanti [00:00:03] Welcome to ideamix Performance and Wellness, where world leading coaches and scientists explain how their research can help you achieve your personal and professional goals. Faster. Hi, it’s Sam Jayanti, co-founder and CEO of ideamix coaching. Coaching has played an important role in my life. It’s helped me through my journey to become a powerful leader, mother and wife. ideamix coaches, help you increase your self-awareness, improve your problem solving skills, and evolve your habits to achieve your goals. All things I’m grateful to have learned and done through my own coaching journey are easy. One minute assessment matches you with an ideal mix coach that best fits your needs and values. Each idea makes coaches vetted and experienced. It helps clients map and achieve their wellness, professional, and business goals. If you or someone you know could benefit from coaching, visit our website at the Idea mix.com. We also know that not everyone can invest in coaching right now, and that’s why we provide free coaching in our Coach Shorts episodes. If you think someone you know would benefit from it, please share our podcast with them. Thanks for listening and see you next time.
Jaimie Kosmar [00:01:12] Welcome to Coaches to Know, a podcast short designed to demystify coaching and help you, our audience, understand what coaching is and how it can help you. I’m your host, Jamie, and today I have the pleasure of being here with Coach Meredith to discuss the assessment. Enneagram Coach Meredith has been coaching for 14 years and she is a. She is certified in the Enneagram assessment before coaching as she worked for 15 years and management consulting at Bain. She has authored two books focused on career development and Living and Leading with intention. She holds an MBA from Stanford and a degree in the Religious Studies from Yale, and her clients are executives at investment firms and those at larger corporations. So thank you, Coach Meredith, for being here with us today.
Coach Meredith [00:02:03] Thanks, Jamie.
Jaimie Kosmar [00:02:05] We’re just going to get right into it as this is a short podcast, and talk about Enneagram. And so why don’t I start with the very basic question of what is the Enneagram assessment and what is it based on?
Coach Meredith [00:02:17] I love starting at the beginning. So the Enneagram is both, test and subsequently a model of the human psyche that lays out nine interconnected personality types which really articulate the depth of what motivates people, how they operate, their basic fears, desires, and how they show up both individually as leaders and then collectively as executives.
Jaimie Kosmar [00:02:47] Great. And do you want to delve into a little bit of further, sort of the origins of the Enneagram latest assessment and what what sort of how it came about?
Coach Meredith [00:02:56] Yeah, I love talking about where I am came from, because it’s really different from some of the other personality assessments. So, you know, I come, as you mentioned, from, very analytical Bain background and the first assessments that I was certified in and that I got to know and started using with leaders were MBTI and EQI, Strengths Finder and things which were robustly, statistically proven from a psychometric perspective. And then it was only later in my career, probably a decade into coaching, that I came upon an immunogram. And, I was originally skeptical because it is not like those psychometric proven and statistically robust, but instead it’s a model that comes from the wisdom traditions that, that has kind of like reflections of showing up in history in different places, and then was actually kind of codified into its current format in the 1950s and then came into the work of leadership in the human potential movement in the 1970s. And so I found it very curious and interesting that because, because it doesn’t come from that scientific background, and at the same time, I find it to be probably the most powerful model for working with leaders and leadership teams that I’ve seen. And the way that it works is that, there are, like I said, nine different personality types, which are all focused around, how you think about the depths of someone operating. So there’s usually a basic fear and a basic desire that each type is operating with. The types are numbered one through nine, though they also have colloquial names that we put against them. They’re given numbers instead of names, generally because their names have a lot of power and names have a lot of association with them. But ours helped the types to be neutral. Because there’s not a good type, there’s not a bad type. There are just different types and different, excuse me, different ways that we kind of operate and move through the world. And what Enneagram does is help us see what’s going on at the depths of our personality and what’s going on at the depths of human interactions.
Jaimie Kosmar [00:05:01] Thank you. Thank you for that. Just a follow up question. You know, you made the comment that you that you find Enneagram to be one of the most powerful assessments for leaders. Why don’t we talk a little bit about what are the best use cases for Enneagram? When do you recommend, leaders, teams or organizations? Think about using Enneagram. And is it is it applicable to individuals as well?
Coach Meredith [00:05:25] Yeah. So the two best use cases are individual leadership development and then collective teaming. So on from an individual leadership development perspective it helps the individual. The reason why I like it is because it’s multidimensional. So a lot of assessment. MBTI for example, gives you a type of I’m an ENTP, you’re an I know I’m a INTJ. And they feel a little static in terms of who you are and that’s how you operate. The thing about the Enneagram is that it is developmental. So, you might see that your type, for example, is a type three, which is what I am, which is someone who’s very focused on achieving, performing, looking good. Often the basic fear of a three is being worthless or not respected. The basic desire of a three is to feel valuable, to be respected, to other, have other people, respect and acknowledge them, to seek approval. And so there’s something about deeply understanding that which helps me then understand the path of how do I develop through those things, and how do I work through the things that are underneath a lot of my behaviors at a more subterranean level, so that I can evolve in that direction? And so in the Enneagram, they’re not only nine types, but there’s the directionality of my type of a three, which through growth tends to start to look more like a nine or alternatively, lots of the other types that grow in the direction of another type when they start down their developmental path. And so what I appreciate about it from an individual leadership perspective is that dimensionality, the directionality and the sense of development, and a little bit of the path where you could go that is, that’s enlightened through thinking about in any grand assessment. Now, the second use case to your question is using it in executive teams. And where I see it is most useful in executive teams is where it’s actually laying bare the underlying behavior that again, the underlying motivations that again explain a lot of behavior. So I often use Enneagram assessments for people to understand themselves and then talk about the dynamics that are happening in a leadership team around consistent stressors, consistent triggers, consistent patterns of behavior, and to be able to go to the thing beneath the thing. So it’s not that you’re always, you’re always over extending yourself, but it’s actually that you’re a type two, which is. Someone who is a helper, a giver, someone who really wants to feel loved and feel like they’re useful to people. And so now we’re seeing actually the way that that person’s always overextending themselves or always saying yes to other people, in a deeper way. And the reasons why they’re doing that, instead of just trying to stay at the superficial layer of the behaviors that we’re observing on the executive team.
Jaimie Kosmar [00:08:09] Oh that’s great. Thank you for explaining that. I did have a follow up question. Yeah. Regarding sort of is there so you laid out for us the sort of best case scenarios or best uses for that? And I just want to understand a little more deeply. You said, you know, I’m a three, but I can go and develop to a nine. Is that like you’re choosing to develop to a nine, and you would work with a coach to help you change your behavior to develop to nine, or it’s like I’m a three. And naturally threes will develop into a like a nine personality.
Coach Meredith [00:08:53] Yeah. So, as you think through the lens of Enneagram, each type one through nine has unhealthy manifestations that type. And then the healthy manifestations of that type to be kind of like reconciled, integrated, healthier expressions of that. So, take I take a nine, for example, and nine is someone who’s known as a peacemaker or a mediator. They’re often the one who’s seeking harmony instead of, tolerating, things kind of going poorly, not unhealthy type of that version would be someone who might numb out or avoid the conflict. Right? A healthier type of a nine might be someone who doesn’t numb out or disengage, but engages in a way that helps. Actually, the group come to harmony. So first of all, you think of the unhealthy, the healthy manifestations of that type, which coaching, obviously other developmental work can, can help support that evolution. But as you think about then even evolving beyond that, right. A nine, for example, will start to take on some of the characteristics, some of the characteristics of a three. So instead of being, kind of exclusively harmony seeking, they’ll also try and take the group to excellence as they start to take on some of the beneficial, aspects of the type that they grow into. So there is a whole developmental path kind of within the type and then beyond the type which mirrors the path in a lot of cases of human evolution becoming more integrated, becoming more whole, becoming a healthier version of what you are starting to mitigate some of the downsides of your strengths and, really integrating who you are.
Jaimie Kosmar [00:10:39] I love I love that idea because it really, I think, hones in on this. You know, we I feel like we humans tend to think of personality as a fixed thing. But something like this that integrates the different personality and talks about growth around a personality, whether it’s unhealthy or healthy. Is this idea that you actually have the capability to weigh in to any probably area of personality that you would want to grow into? You know, it’s just matching that, that personality trait to I don’t know if we want to refer to them as traits to that moment. Right. But I like the flexibility of rather than thinking of personality as the stagnant thing. It’s more it’s a dynamic thing.
Coach Meredith [00:11:27] Yeah. I really would fight against kind of the binary definitions of yeah, right. That it’s a paradox which seems to be resolved. You both at the same time are who you are and have a certain set of like fears, beliefs, mindset, orientation and underlying psyche which you have, you have had and which you will continue to have. And at the same time, you can also evolve and develop beyond that and in a different way. Right? So it is both static and developmental. It is both of you are who you always are and you will be that. And you can be a different integrated version of a human leader of an executive. And so it seems like there’s this binary choice between is ecstatic, or do you get to completely choose what you are? And the answer is, well, like that’s kind of a false binary. And yeah, you both are who you always have been. And there’s a path to being different through that. Yeah. And and that is the things that I do really love about Enneagram because in all of this conversation, it just introduces depth. It introduces depth and development and opportunity for them, for being ourselves and being different.
Jaimie Kosmar [00:12:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s great. Are there any, shortcomings to using the Enneagram? Like, are there situations where you wouldn’t use it?
Coach Meredith [00:12:49] Yeah. So they’re not necessarily situations in which I wouldn’t use it. But I think the thing that I said early on is the major reason why I see Enneagram not landing within a system is that if a system is highly analytical and, not open minded to taking the test and seeing the value and kind of like proving out for themselves, right? It’s not Enneagram is not something that I can give you the linear, logical argument as to why this is the best. Assessment for you, and I have all the data to prove why this is the end all be all for assessments, which is why I always orient people to an experimental iterative test and learn approach of take the Enneagram, see what your type is. Have a typing conversation with a coach. Figure out whether that resonates with you. Notice what it feels like to look at the world through that lens, and then figure out whether that’s useful to you. And actually driving insight, is proportionately, when I work with leaders, when I work with executive teams, they find deep insight coming out of it. But it is something that you have to experience for yourself, and you have to be willing to try it out, because I’m not going to be able to convince you that it is, the assessment that you should use instead of another assessment. So systems that are highly analytical or exclusively data driven and not open to other sources of wisdom, I wouldn’t suggest using it because it’s, too much of an uphill battle to embed that into a culture. But if there’s a certain open mindedness for wisdom coming from other places and sources, then it’s a it’s a great and very meaningful tool to be using.
Jaimie Kosmar [00:14:18] I love that, I love that, I mean, basically the minimal criteria is an openness to seeing what this can tell you. And what is the what is the, Enneagram sort of what’s the nuts and bolts? What is it, a test? You know, how many questions are on and how long does it take an individual to take?
Coach Meredith [00:14:36] Yeah. So there’s there’s, there’s a number of tests which will test for Enneagram. They’re usually about 20 to 40 minutes long, like a series of questions, which are all looking to identify what’s actually going on underneath your behaviors. Like I said, when you get that output from the Enneagram test, it’s usually worth having a conversation with a coach because the tests tend to have, depending on the test itself, 60 to 80% fidelity and actually accurately typing you. And that’s in part because there’s a lot of interactivity between the types. So you could be, like, I am, I am, I am primarily a type three. Each type also has a wing, which is, a slight influence from one of the side. So I’m a three and I’m a, with a wing four. So I have a little bit of four influence on me, and threes of all the sixes. Right. And they go to nines and stretch. So you could look at my, look at my test results and say, I only see a three and a six and a nine and a four. And there’s some differentiation that needs to happen usually. And usually in a coaching conversation with someone who knows the Enneagram to say, how do we make sense of this? And how do we actually understand what you’re showing up as, and in what context? But yeah, it’s a test. And then in addition to the test, there’s the depth of the model. So the model has directions of strengths and directions of growth that you grow in. It has relationships between the different numbers. And there’s a lot of wisdom behind each of the types that, even without doing the test, you can go about reading, reading up on and figuring out which of these resonate with me, which of them feels like it explains my behavior in a good way. Usually what I find is that typing is a thoughtful process, but not a hard process. Because usually when we when we find your type genie, you would probably read the description and feel like a little complicated and a little too seen and maybe a little angry, like, wait, wait, wait, like I do that about me. That’s not really fair. Yeah, I don’t like that part I don’t. There’s often a reaction with people when they find their type of like, oh, I don’t love being that type because they’ve lived it for a really long time, and they see both the beautiful parts of it and the and the hard parts of it as well. And so, yeah, usually a test plus a conversation about it. And then there’s the opportunity to just read up on it. Many resources are widely available online, but the Enneagram Institute in particular has, great resources that are widely available and free.
Jaimie Kosmar [00:17:03] Amazing, amazing. And just one last question here before I let you go, because we’re coming to time. Why did you decide to get certified in the Enneagram, as opposed to any of the other assessments that are out there?
Coach Meredith [00:17:15] You know, I to the point that I just made, I don’t think I’ve ever had such a visceral reaction to being typed as I did with the Enneagram. A feeling of I’m seeing this feels right. I don’t know where this is coming from. I’m kind of angry about it and kind of inspired by it. I felt the most visceral, kind of like juicy reaction to getting typed in Enneagram than being typed in any other system. And it was that feeling that that I really had, and that same reaction that I’ve seen in other people, which caused me to say this is actually a really powerful tool if people are open minded to it. It’s certainly my tool of choice if people are willing to entertain it.
Jaimie Kosmar [00:17:57] Well, thank you so much, Coach Meredith, for sharing, with us some of your insight about the Enneagram. And thank you to our audience for listening. If you would like to work with Coach Meredith or one of our other qualified coaches, please visit us at theideamix.com. Thank you so much for listening.
Coach Meredith [00:18:14] Thanks, Jamie.
Narrator [00:18:18] Thanks for listening. Please subscribe wherever you listen and leave us a review. Find your ideal coach at theideamix.com. Special thanks to our producer, Martin Milewski and singer songwriter Doug Allen.